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Traicy - Sat Oct 1, 2011, 20:13
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T3hD4rk - Sun Feb 20, 2011, 20:29
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    Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

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    Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by T3hD4rk on Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:11 pm

    Ok, so this is becomming a personal frustration of mine. People seem to think that stamina tanks are the only way to go, and that by stacking stamina you are teh bestest tenk evar. This is simply wrong for many reasons. Tanking is far more dynamic that that, and there are multiple areas you need to concider. Take it from a guy who has had about three years experience as a paladin tank (On and off). So lets begin.

    There are three main types of tanking

    • Stamina Tanks (Soaking up damage)
    • Mitigation tanks (Trying to minimise taken damage)
    • Avoidance tanks (Trying to avoid as much damage as possible)

    Each style has it's own pros and cons. The first thing I would like to emphasise, is you need to become crit immune. You do this by getting the defense cap of 540. (Please note, defense DOES NOT become useless after 540, it ONLY means at this point you will not be critically hit.)

    Avoidance

    The idea here is that the best way to stay alive, is to completely avoid damage. Sounds logical right?

    When does avoidance work?

    • Avoidance works on mobs and bosses that land very heavy physical blows.
    • Avoidance also works when there are lots of mobs to contend with. Mitigation favours this situation as well.

    When does avoidance not work?

    • Avoidance falls down on bosses that have a large amount of magic damage being thrown around, usually in the form of undispellable debuffs

    How to gear for avoidance:

    Avoidance paladins need to rely on:

    1. Defense
    2. Dodge
    3. Agility
    4. Parry

    Generally, a paladin should gear for defense and dodge, NEVER specifically for parry (IE, don't gem for it).

    Mitigation:

    Like avoidance-gearing, mitigation-gearing also seeks to reduce the total damage taken, however, mitigation aims to reduce the impact of incoming blows, rather than to avoid it all together.

    When does mitigation work?

    • Mitigation tanks work best where bosses or mobs use smaller faster attacks, that do not hit as much damage.
    • Mitigation is also a good place to start when learning to tank seeing as it reduces the largest amount of damage you can take, plus, mitigation gear is easier to get at the lower tiers, than it is at the moment

    When does mitigation not work?

    • Mitigation does not deal well with bosses that hit extremely hard, the mitigation can not be adequate to deal with powerful swings.
    • Mitigation does not do well against bosses that have a large amount of magic damage being thrown around, usually in the form of undispellable debuffs

    Mitigation Paladins rely on:

    1. Block rating
    2. Defense Rating
    3. Agility

    Your main stat is block rating, try to get as much of it as possible, follow up by defense rating (which adds more total avoidance including block). As a filler (Blue hybrid gem prehaps) go agility.

    Stamina Tanks

    This one is obvious, increase the amount of damage you can take before dying. This is probably the simplest form of tanking.

    When does stamina tanking work?

    • Stamina tankings main use is on bosses that use alot of unavoidable spell damage.
    • When learning an encounter, stamina is a solid choice.

    When does stamina tanking not work?

    • Stamina tanking does not do well against a large number of mobs, seeing as none of the blows will be avoided or mitigated with any reliability, ranking up a huge amount of damage
    • Stamina tanks will also not fare well against bosses which have extremely powerful mele swings.
    • Stamina tanks are extremely heavy on healers mana, seeing as they essentially have to heal all damage tanken, unavoided or mitigated. This relates directly to point 2.

    Stamina tanks rely on:

    • Stamina

    Yeah, stack stamina to oblivion. There is no DR on stamina, so stack away.

    NOTE: Seeing as threat is not a problem on magic due to the fact that bosses do not dodge or parry, I will not discuss how that relates into the tanking styles. (Threat gearing is another style of tanking, but one that is useless on magic).

    So, what should you choose?

    In my opinion there are two things you should really concider.

    1) Your personal preferance.
    2) Your healers preferance.

    YOU have to be comfortable with how you tank, and be familiar with your own weaknesses. Similarly, your healers must be able to handle your tanking style. Healers going oom? Prehaps a stamina tank is not what you should be concidering. Healers not able to keep Avoidance / Mitigation tanks alive due to magic damage? Maybe you should switch to stamina.

    It is also class specific really, I would say from experience:

    - Paladins and Warriors do well at mitigation.
    - Druids and Warriors do well at stamina tanking.
    - Paladins, Death Knights, and Warriors do well at avoidance.

    However, I do not have much experience with Druid or Warrior tanking.

    So what is the moral of this story?

    The next person who tells me to switch my avoidance trinket / gear to stamina because "Stamina is totes better" will get stabbed. There are more than one tanking styles, and one is NOT better than the others for all situations.

    Love Ryan Smile

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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by Lifended on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:33 pm

    Actually, DK's do pretty good at stamina tanking too, since Blood and their heals scale with HP rather than damage they get more out of stamina stacking.
    Afaik, Druids are the best for tanking in ICC, DK's are the second best.
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by Igen on Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:55 am

    Defense doesn't reduce the chance to be hit by spells? Sad(((
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by 2fast4ucro on Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:29 am

    nope, only talents/being BE do that

    and ill just say that avo has DR + stam is oh so much better for heroic raids cuz spells that hit tank are ~ 40k unresistable dmg (lady deathwhisper etc) while normal melee attacks are ~ 5-9k on plate with shield and all other special attacks usually cant be avoided (impale or something like that)
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by The Big M on Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:10 pm

    Pala tank = stm no questions. All others can GTFO MY LAWN.

    <3

    Feel free to ask for an explanation.
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by T3hD4rk on Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:31 pm

    2fast4ucro wrote:nope, only talents/being BE do that

    and ill just say that avo has DR + stam is oh so much better for heroic raids cuz spells that hit tank are ~ 40k unresistable dmg (lady deathwhisper etc) while normal melee attacks are ~ 5-9k on plate with shield and all other special attacks usually cant be avoided (impale or something like that)

    Deathwhisper is a magic based encounter, so yeah you would want a stamina tank for her. You would want a mitigation tank for impale. I would argue for a avoidance tank for Marrowgar.
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by Traicy on Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:40 am

    Well, i won't argue in domains i don't really know a lot about. But let's take a look from a realistic side: stamina tanks are like the general type of tanking. They can assume all of the tanking roles, instead of specializing in one area. Knowing the quasi-impossibility of getting the best gear 2 or 3 times (one set has its own gemming/enchants) , one would most likely opt for gemming stamina, which proves that what you're all talking about is in abstract, a theory. Stamina tanks will always prevail.
    Correct me if i'm wrong Razz
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by Mr.Teddy on Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:53 am

    What about tanks that have both stamina, high melee migitation and high dodge avoidance.
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by T3hD4rk on Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:35 am

    Traicy wrote:Well, i won't argue in domains i don't really know a lot about. But let's take a look from a realistic side: stamina tanks are like the general type of tanking. They can assume all of the tanking roles, instead of specializing in one area. Knowing the quasi-impossibility of getting the best gear 2 or 3 times (one set has its own gemming/enchants) , one would most likely opt for gemming stamina, which proves that what you're all talking about is in abstract, a theory. Stamina tanks will always prevail.
    Correct me if i'm wrong Razz

    If you're going to do things right, you usually will have two tanks in your raid, with different specialisations. You would usually have two with different tanking styles.

    Stamina tanks are NOT the general type of tanking. They are the general type of tanking that magic has come to adopt. I believe this is due to the simplicity and the belief that everyone seems to have that "Well all dese busses are scripted and use magic naoe, so liek, makes mitigation and avoidance useless." So yes, naturally people will aim for stamina due to that. But that does NOT make it "teh bestest" for all situations... Also, what kinds of tanking roles are you talking about?

    In SOME situations, stamina tanks are naturally superior to the other forms. But im some situations they really do not do well. I'll give you an example.

    ToC:

    Gormok - Mitigation without a doubt. Impale is mitigateable and impale is what kills most tanks. Mitigation is by far the best option here. Staggering stomp can be mitigated too. Stamina just soaks up huge amounts of damage, putting strain on the healers. Avoidance is pretty much the worst kind of tank to have for this encounter.

    Worms - Stamina, huge amount of magic damage, so naturally it would come out on top.

    Icehowl - Avoidance or Mitigation. There is pleanty of physical damage being thrown around here, that can be both avoided and mitigated. Far superiour to stamina in this case.

    Jaraxxus - Stamina tank without a doubt here. The magic damage being thrown around is pretty huge, and naturally cannot be avoided or mitigated.

    Champions - Shouldnt really need a tank. However for current magic tactics I would side on avoidance here. Especially in cases of kiting the warrior. Though really any old tank would do here.

    Twins - Stamina seeing as the light and dark damage are seperate entities.

    Anub - Mitigation or avoidance. Firstly, (take 25 man) anub should be hitting around 25k per mele hit (Before reductions). This is huge and something that a stamina tank would soak up, making the healers job 10x harder. Stamina tanks are also a real bitch during the leeching swarm phase, seeing as due to their high health, anub heals a great deal from them. They are easier to keep alive during this phase, but also heal anub.

    Do you see my point yet? Each tank is viable in different situations, and is useful on more than one boss. Stamina is NOT all purpose "best" for everything. Stamina is just as all-purpose as, say, mitigation. Sure you're not going to be able to get all of the tanking sets naturally, but simply ignoring the pros and cons of the other tanking styles is just plain ignorant.

    Mr.Teddy wrote:What about tanks that have both stamina, high melee migitation and high dodge avoidance.
    "High" is relative. If you go for all round in everything, you would naturaly not be as high in one area as someone who specialised in it.
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by 2fast4ucro on Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:49 am

    im taking my pala as example, in pve prot spec i have ~52% avo, not counting block, ~65% dmg reduction from armor and 45k hp unbuffed and im stacking pure stamina... i mean you cant see me in some panic situation or dying often so for pala i'd stick to pure stam
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by T3hD4rk on Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:30 pm

    The damage reduction from armor is pretty flat across all paladins, it's pretty much engineered to be around 65%. (I have 66% for example).

    In my acoidance / mitigation set I have around 42k hp and 60% avoidance. I also have around 40% block. Mid rotation I have around 68-70% avoidance (Procs).

    And it's the same with me, you wont find me dying in panic situations. So why is it better to go stam?
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by Igen on Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:45 am

    I for example like avoidance tanks better. (Just because every feg goes for stamina here :> ) well not just that, but in Naxx times we had avoidance tanks, and got to know those first. :p

    You wasn't able to do what Shar said in naxx times. So as better items come (TOC/ICC) you just don't need that much avoidance because your gear provides more than enough so you can stack stamina. (don't counting the ICC debuff - I think Blizz made that because of this) + yeah Stamina doesn't have DR :p You just can't get your avoidance to a further level that counters the stamina stacking loss.

    Ohh and you should be able to do NB with 1 stamina and 1 avo/miti tank. Only one of the worms use their spew at a time, so tanks can change when they burrow. Other dmgs are healable on an avoidance tank too.
    EDIT: you can tank Acid with a dps too xd
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by 2fast4ucro on Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:45 am

    i was just thinking about jara encounter, if you are not stam tank, adds will eat you even tho on first look you would suggest mitigation tank, infernals on 25hc are spamming aoe spells and sisters will keep you stunned in that aoe so shitload of stam is best choice, and most of toc is like that
    (ever tried to tank togc 25 fc with less than 60k hp? Only one thing is coming on my mind and its 2h mace from naxx 25 trash xd)
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by T3hD4rk on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:23 pm

    2fast4ucro wrote:i was just thinking about jara encounter...
    Oh yeah, no doubt. I'm not saying that other tanks are better in all situations, au controir, the point of me writing this was to try and explain that they all work in certain situations, and can all fail.
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by madkiwi on Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:53 pm

    Interesting topic, and interesting replies, having been basically setup by Shar oginally when i first made a tank, this has some food for thought.

    I have very similar attributes as shar, with hp,avoid etc, and i must say, i only stack stamina as well, but still seem to dodge and parry ALOT during encounters, (not to much now with the -20% dodge in ICC), and my blade ward seems to proc like 100%, whether thats a bug or not idk.

    Tbh, i never eally even considered the other types of tanks, it just seemed logical to have alot of HP, with average block and parry and this seems to work well really, on top of that there are all the other talents that paladin tanks have that can take pressure of your healers, or aggro pullers (locks >.<)etc, and as you say, everyone has there own style, we get used to the way we play but im always open to a few tips or w/e.

    On a side note, i have been struggling with the aggro on some of the mobs in ICC, anyone else struck this, the seem immune to taunts and if someone pulls aggro its damn near impossible to get it back, any ideas?
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by Mr.Teddy on Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:18 am

    Don't lose aggro Razz
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by T3hD4rk on Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:32 am

    Damage. You deal threat by doing damage. If you dont already, add the armsman glove enchant, otherwise, try to gain some gear pieces that add a bit more Strength or attack power. When tanking, remember that paladins gain threat by holy damage, you want to put down as much holy damage as you can manage, so for instance rather than opening with say, holy shield, open with shield of righteousness.

    Also I should probably add, inside ICC avoidance tanks are more or less useless. Go mitigation or stamina for ICC.
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by 2fast4ucro on Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:29 pm

    if you have ret gear or even better pvp gear you can use it for tanking trash, 4.5k+ dps, 15k tps and blocking 2.3k dmg is just great, + you dont need healer at all, i've done it with fury warr, only 2 of us, killed every single mob on way to lord marro What a Face

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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by Lifended on Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:02 am

    2fast4ucro wrote:if you have ret gear or even better pvp gear you can use it for tanking trash, 4.5k+ dps, 15k tps and blocking 2.3k dmg is just great, + you dont need healer at all, i've done it with fury warr, only 2 of us, killed every single mob on way to lord marro What a Face
    Rofl I can tank those mobs @ 25 man with a holy paladin
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by 2fast4ucro on Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:50 am

    we were talking about threat...
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by madkiwi on Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:12 pm

    Cleared 10 man again last night with Graid, tried some new tanking tactics and threat was good, it seems basically it is just down to holy damage creating the threat, alot different instance to tank than TOC, which was rather easy in the end. Thanks for the tips Very Happy

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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by Lifended on Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:04 pm

    2fast4ucro wrote:we were talking about threat...
    I dont give a shit
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by Igen on Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:12 pm

    madkiwi wrote:aggro pullers (locks >.<)

    fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by Lifended on Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:16 pm

    Dks can pull aggro better than locks
    Frost Presence ^_^
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    Re: Tanking Types (Paladin oriented)

    Post by T3hD4rk on Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:37 pm

    Lol, back when i used to pug, random DK's using FP "Because it gives me HP" used to piss me the hell of. SWITCH YOUR DAMN PRESENCE DICKWAD.

    They never switch Sad

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